See:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

I was looking for a jam-resistant alternative to the Scaffold Knot, but the Gnat Hitch was simple enough that I'm also using it as a more secure replacement for the Buntline Hitch and some other hitches as well.

Roo--Welcome to the forum.

Gave the Gnat a try yesterday. It seems to work as advertised but I wouldn't make a permanent switch without trying it a few more times. Thanks for passing that one along.

Dietley...you're the number one man for knots. What do you think?

The Gnat looks like a derivative of the Bowline. Can you tie it off with a yosemite tie off to dress it a bit neater?

I like it, nice looking knot. Would it have similar breaking strength of a bowline?

BKS

Resembling some of the features of a bowline is where the relationship ends. I've never been a fan of the yosemite variation in general, due it's lack of security, but that's another topic. I think I know what you have in mind, but such a modification would negatively affect the form stability and jam-resistance of the hitch.

I have not done strength testing. That would be sensitive to hitching object size, rope material, setting, etc. I assume that if the job is at all important, that correct rope sizing will make a few (or even several) points strength percentage difference one way or the other largely irrelevant.

I think you're embarrassing me! NickfromWI has a black belt in knots, is a member of an international knot guild, and would surely be our number one man for knots, if not for the presence of Mr. Cecilhemp, who has, I believe, actually written books on the subject. Factor in Tom Dunlap and a few more, and I might not even be in the top five!

That said, I do like knots, and like discussing them..........

This gnat hitch looks interesting. Since my usual DdRT setup uses closed friction hitches tied directly to a rigging plate, rather than a carabiner or screwlink, I have to pick apart and untie the termination knots, rather than sliding them off the carabiner (etc.) and spilling them. I've been trying to replace the scaffold knots, which, although they jam badly, are very trustworthy. I have been learning to trust buntlines for the job, and it hasn't been difficult, because they, even though easier to untie than scaffolds, still jam sufficiently to inspire confidence in their security!

After playing with the gnat in the house, I'm prepared to take it up a tree for a run. Taking a few precautions, of course. If it is easier to untie than a buntline after being loaded, but still seems secure, it will likely become my new knot of choice. Thanks, Roo!

Roo,

Dietley pretty much described the issue(s) of the Scaffold hitch - it's hard to untie once it has been loaded, and if you can't slide the Scaffold hitch off a biner and spill it, it can be difficult to untie. However, having said that, I have yet to see a Scaffold hitch that I couldn't untie with fingers alone although it sometimes takes some patience, and that goes for SRT loading too.

I used to be more opposed to the Scaffold hitch, but I find of late, I'm using it more and more - it's so easy to tie and time tested. I limit my use the Scaffold on biners so I can 'spill' the hitch rather than untie it. For closed objects like rings, I tend to use an unbacked anchor hitch. I use anchor hitches to secure an AborPro rope bridge to the rings on my saddle. Neither side has ever loosened or even moved once set under load.

I have used the Buntline hitch for a long time and noticed a time or two that I wasn't getting it right the first time. If I had just been learning the knot, that wouldn't have concerned me, but this was after much used of the knot. I think these few times happened when the rope was oriented a bit differently than normal - that does make a difference.

The Buntline is a terrific hitch. It's reasonably easy to tie, holds securely, and is easy to untie. I lost a bit of confidence in myself, not the hitch, when I realized I mis-tied it a time or two.

I've never used the Gnat nor do I know anyone that has. That doesn't mean the knot isn't a good, secure knot, it just means we have no history of it's performance as a climbing hitch. And that's a catch 22 of sorts. If we only use knots that are tried and tested, we'd never see any new knots introduced to climbing.

I find that knots either hold securely, or they don't, and it's pretty obvious what they're going to do as they are loaded. If they hold under varying loads with consistent behavior for a dozen times or so, I'd say that's how it's always going to behave.

The only other issue, and I do respect this concept, is can it be easily tied correctly, or would it be easy to get it wrong under stress?

I think its ease of tying and inspection is one of the Gnat Hitch's strong points, but I'm a knot guy, so I'm hoping to get feedback from others, including you, so that my view isn't severed from real-world average joe users. For many people, even a bowline is tricky.

I think that tying the Gnat Hitch should be easy for anyone who is familiar with what a half hitch is (via two half hitches, for example). I'm open to correction, however.

I'm a little concerned that as so often happens, merely discussing pros and cons of anything makes it seem bigger than it really is. But...

As I say this, bear in mind I have no experience with the Gnat AND we are considering it with respect to the Scaffold hitch - not every other knot in the world - sooo...

My problem with the Gnat, and the Buntline (here I go comparing it to another knot) is there are too many places and ways to route and tuck rope. For example, in the Gnat, under stress, does the tail go under or over, in front of or behind???? What I'm saying is the more ways there are to route things, the more direction changes, and the more places there are to tuck things, etc. the more risk there is of a mistake.

Then add to that the knot is oriented upward, downward, left or right and it changes everything.

In comparison, the scaffold hitch suffers from some of the same issues, just not as many and not as many possibilities. You always wrap the tail two wraps in the same direction - it doesn't even matter which direction you choose. There's only one place to tuck the tail - through the center of the coils. And yes, we can get that wrong too, but there's much less of a chance.

The Scaffold knot does not require multiple tail tucks, half hitches, over/under behind/in front of decisions or direction changes.

Even when you change the orientation, the Scaffold hitch is still pretty much the same to tie. If you can do to complete turns and one tuck down the center of the coils, you've got it.

If you think you might miss the cross over inside the coil, you can simply use three turns and if you miss the tuck, the worst you have is a double Scaffold instead of a triple.

That shouldn't be taken to mean the Gnat or Buntline for that matter shouldn't be used, but IMO, both have a much higher risk of being tied incorrectly. Of course the inspection phase is supposed to catch errors, but it may not always. Even if it does, you have to undo it an start over. That costs time if time is important - like is just came a down pour, or like Hunabku getting caught in a tree by a sudden thunder storm...

These are just things to consider - not a go - no-go thing.

The chance of tying ANY knot incorrectly is directly related to how comfortable you are with that knot. I'm going to take the buntline for example, I have been tying it for decades (ever since I was first taught it in cub scouts some twenty years ago). I've tied it in every single orientation possible and it hasn't failed me. When I first took up tree climbing (still getting better with it ) I was delighted to see that it was one of the knots that was recommended as a safe termination knot and it is my goto when needed.

I'm quite confident in my buntline tying capabilities and more confident with it than a scaffold just because I've done it more and have had much more experience with it. I believe this can be said about any knot.

Ask almost any experienced rock climber and they'd say we're all crazy to trust ANYTHING but a figure-8... Even when you show them how it can possibly cross load their 'biner...

Thank you for the feedback. The biggest danger with the Scaffold Knot would be failing to make two full coils, which will lead to a dangerous knot. However, although this group may not put very much strain on their ropes (due to the ratio of rope size to load), I would think that finding an alternative to the Scaffold might be desirable since even under moderate strain, even people here are having to slide it off a carabiner to get it untied under some circumstances. If time is important, time for untying should count for something.

I wonder if, after some practice, you find the Gnat Hitch more easily tied and checked than the Buntline Hitch that you so recently used as your alternative to the Scaffold Knot.

Perhaps my seeing the Gnat Hitch as a half hitch plus one tuck is making me think it is simpler than it is.

I think the popularity of the Scaffold among tree climbers is directly related to its most common uses for tree climbers:

1. As a termination on a carabiner for one leg of a DRT system.
Virtues being the tail exits straight up thus staying out of the way, very compact, it's security, once set it stays put. It's so quick to slide of the carabiner (over many years of climbing, never had a problem sliding it off a carabiner) and take apart by simply pulling it apart that time is never an issue using it.

2. Termination for both legs of a closed hitch split tail cord
A compact and secure termination, is typically only tied once for the entire service life of the split tail, cinches tight on the carabiner during use (unlike a splice that progressively loosens over the life of a split tail).

So... it's not that the Gnat Hitch is not a useful knot, it's just that the Scaffold is very favorable for specific applications in tree climbing. No need to try and unseat it from it's current exalted position
-AJ

Standard operating procedure for technical tree climbers is to thoroughly practice and understand any life support knot or hitch before putting into use. Any other approach is just not an option. Definitely room for discussion as to what knots are more problematic to tie under stressful conditions etc., the well rounded tree climber always has an alternative strategy when they find themselves temporarily unable to tie a familiar knot due to stress or unusual conditions like tying a a knot backwards or upside-down.

As mentioned earlier I would focus on promoting the Gnat Hitch as a potentially useful knot for tree climbing, but not pit it against other very useful knots already well accepted by tree climbers for good reasons.
-AJ

If "pitting" is comparing characteristics, why not compare characteristics? We've already had one person in this thread who is looking to replace the Scaffold Knot because of its jamming.

Nothing wrong with comparisons, and I think every tree climber welcomes a new knot for consideration. Just a tough row to hoe going against the Scaffold with the Gnat.

Definitely, you may have a convert in Dietley who likes to terminate one leg of his DRT system directly to his harness delta thereby losing the "slip off" option with the Scaffold.
-AJ

Roo,

You missed this in my post:
"If you think you might miss the cross over inside the coil, you can simply use three turns and if you miss the tuck, the worst you have is a double Scaffold instead of a triple."

The above addresses the very thing you mentioned - you could miss the turns. This is yet another advantage of the Scaffold knot, if you use a three turn, the worst you'll get is a two turn. When tied like this, the knot has built in redundancy.

The Gnat appears to be a simple knot, so does the Bowline. But they both consists of loops, behind /in front of etc. routes that under stress or inattention can be routed incorrectly.

I can change the proficiency with which people shoot handguns by doing nothing more than telling them I'm going to time them. They all but fall apart. I think it is my realization that everything is easy until we 'have' to do it and then it's a bit different.

Again, I'm not saying 'we' should or should not use it. I'm just saying be aware of all the possible implications. For myself, I plan to stick with the Scaffold knot. I've already started using a triple Scaffold. I figure getting it tied quickly and correctly the first time is my first priority. I can take all the time I need to untie it.