Ron,

To step away from the Scaffold Knot discussion for a moment, do you see any difference in the ease of tying and checking between the Buntline Hitch and the Gnat Hitch?

I admit some uneasiness or hesitation on occasion in the final step of the Buntline Hitch even after years of use, but just from my own perspective, I haven't had any such uneasiness with the Gnat Hitch after a relatively short span of use and testing.

Well, I wish I could give a better answer here, but since I have no experience with the Gnat, I simply can't offer an opinion.

I'm not so sure comfort has a lot to do with it. What if we get out of our comfort zone?

I've watched excellent shooters on the range fall apart in simulators - training & tactics seem to go right out the window. I watched my buddy in a man-on-man shootout at Gunsite throw shots all over the place just because of a little friendly, harmless competition.

Oh, just in case anyone is wondering how I did......I won the man-on-man in my Advanced Handgun Class.


I don't doubt you at all. But that doesn't translate to the next 100 guys that try to use the Buntline or Gnat. They don't have that experience, and tests have shown without a doubt, the more decisions we have to make under pressure the more likely we are to make a mistake.

I'm pretty good with rope and knots myself and have used the Buntline as a go-to knot for quite a while, then one day I realized I had tied it incorrectly.


That's good for you, but how many of us have your experience tying the Buntline?


I think they have good reason to feel that way and I'm not so sure that I don't agree with them. A cross loaded biner is not a good thing, but it's sure not going to produce a failure. I have about the smallest biner money can buy and it has a cross loading of 1800 lbs. At my weight geared up, I'm about 200 lbs. That's a safety margin of 1800 / 200 = 9! That's a safety margin of 9:1. I can't calculate a safety margin for an incorrectly tied knot or the risk of incorrectly tying a knot.

Another consideration is how universal the knot is, i.e. how does it behave in soft arborist type rope and how does it behave in stiffer, higher efficiency rope like EzBend. Based on rescue work, I KNOW figure 8's on a bight holds well in just about all climbing ropes. It is the go-to knot for rescue teams.

Well, we're not in rescue work, but what happens when somebody says, "Hey, you gotta climb on this rope!!!". I'm gonna tie either a triple scaffold or a figure 8 on a bight. I have no history to go by for a Gnat in that particular rope?

Even the scaffold knot is iffy, IMO, in 10mm EzBend. The figure 8 holds securely.

Not that you would tie it incorrectly, but the rest of us would probably have a higher risk of incorrectly tying a Gnat or Buntline, or Bowline for that matter, than a triple Scaffold with it's built in redundancy or a figure 8 on a bight.

But again, I don't want to make too much out of this, like I said just discussing details and pros and cons of anything can make things seem bigger than life.

If I'm climbing, I want to use knots that I'd not hesitate to teach to new climbers. That's pretty much the scaffold hitch and the figure 8 on a bight. I've come a long way to come to that point. I like rope, I like knots of all kinds. But I slowly started to realize the more I know, the more decisions I have to make. Some would call this the KISS principle.

I think we can all agree that there is a degree of subjectivity involved when discussing the ease of tying knots, as well as the ease with which they can be mis-tied. Subjectivity becomes huge if we add in the aesthetic appeal of a knot!

I must say that, ever since I learned it, the scaffold knot has been a favourite. Easy to tie, compact, and even attractive. Its security seems beyond questioning -- it was the first knot I ever trusted at height without a back-up. I would almost argue that it is a perfect knot, except for that one property: it can be a pain to untie once loaded (assuming that you can't simply slide it off and spill it). The only application where I routinely deal with this is when I tie the ends of my closed friction hitches directly onto a rigging plate, rather than a carabiner. In this application, we are talking about cordage that is smaller and softer than a climbing rope, and therefore more prone to jamming.

It's not an insurmountable problem, indeed I have been tying on and untying them from my rigging plate for quite a few years, now. However, it would be convenient to find a knot that would do everything the scaffold knot can, PLUS be easier to untie, and I have been keeping my eyes open for one. As I mentioned previously, I have been trying the buntline for this purpose, with some success. It isn't perfect for my usage, though, because although I haven't noticed any slippage, I still can't trust it as much as I trust the scaffold (this is likely pure subjectivity), and it still is no picnic to untie after being loaded.

This new gnat knot that Roo has introduced to us looks to have promise to me. I will have to try it out on my closed hitches to know for sure if it is secure and if it can be easily untied after loading, but my preliminary experiments with it indicate that it might be. Also, in my opinion (subjectivity again), the gnat is very easy to tie. A half hitch is as easy as it gets, then after that there is a simple over, under, over and through sequence that seems very intuitive to me, but then, that finish reminds me of part of a carrick bend, which has been a favourite of mine for decades. For me, that part is important: if the knot is simple and easily memorized, it's safer, because you're less likely to mis-tie it when rattled or distracted.

Anyway, the upshot of all this rambling is that I welcome any new knots I encounter, and even if I don't have a particular need I'm trying to fill, I'm always happy to compare and contrast the new knots with the ones I already use. How else would a person know if they were using the best knots for any given job? And, for me, there is a larger principle here than just knowing lots and lots of knots. By knowing lots of knots, a person learns a lot about knots, and I always prefer to have a firm understanding of underlying concepts, rather than just memorizing algorithms, especially when safety is involved. I may be wrong about this, but I think a person is less likely to mis-tie knots if they understand how they work, instead of just memorizing the steps.

I enjoy knots too, I'll be playing with the gnat. I think where I am is where some are about kit - minimalist. I'm picking a few knots that I know are universal in the sense of rope type and application, and that will be my 'kit'.

I remember one of Hunabku's posts some time back where he went home, dumped his gear out,, grabbed his saddle and rope and started climbing with a trad tie-in - I don't think he even used biners. I suspect he used two knots, a Blake and probably figure 8 follow through loop or a girth hitch.

I'll still use different knots in mostly static situations - I use anchor hitches to attach my rope bridge to my saddle - it's the most compact knot I'm aware of and in my harness rings, the tails point straight down and out of the way instead of laying back on the bridge part of the rope.

Aside from the safety advantages, I just minimizing right now - even gear.

Ron you ok?

Sounds like a plan,
-AJ

Not really - I haven't been the same since the PRK eye surgery. Now, even when I can see well enough to find a tree, I still can't tell if I'm on my rope or a vine growing in the tree.

Ron! Get some bigger rope....then you can tell the difference!

LOL - there ya go - big rope for the blind.

I had another strange experience climbing the other day. My rope felt squirmy; I think I may have been climbing up a snake.