This is a method that I have been working with for a couple of months.
I like it because it provides easy movement both up and down.
(You can climb on it)
It is essentially just a standard blakes type climbing system that is tied with the rope doubled because it is used in a 3rd rope arrangement.


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The attachment point is the doubled rope tied in a Figure 8 on a Byte.
So far this has given the best results but the attachment is rather bulky and could stand some improvement.

ANYONE trying this should remember to start out LOW AND SLOW!

Be Safe...

Thanks for posting this. I've been thinking a lot about third ropes and super system deravitives lately, and realizing how they are connected. I tried your Blakes on a Bight, and I liked it. I had to use a 6/2 Blakes (2/1 on the bight) to keep it from slipping, but probably because the rope was running through two cambium savers at the branch.

I played with a few different harness connections, pretty straightforward. At first I tried tying a scaffold knot. This was significantly less bulky than the quadrupled figure-8. It can also be tied without a working end (so you can tie the blake's hitch first) but is cumbersome to do so. This photo was taken from one I tied in the bight (a double bight?):
<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXum0Sj3UhI/AAAAAAAAAWA/JSjLa2-zbsc/s400/IMG_3594.JPG" />

I tried switching to a slipped over hand, and clipping the slipped loops. This was pretty compact, and secure, but I don't really feel comfortable with an overhand knot in my life-support chain. I thought that the twin strands might reduce the bend radius enough that I'd like the knot, but I don't think I do:
<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXum0oRx_PI/AAAAAAAAAWI/RtscYvvvJPo/s400/IMG_3595.JPG" />

The next step was to try a slipped figure-8. This works well. You can easily cinch it down against the carabiner, or leave a loop - it wasn't closing up on me. It's pretty compact and I'd guess plenty strong for this application. Here's a photo of it in the system (please ignore the small tail exiting the Blakes and the lack of bitter end knots - I was merely demoing the system on a short piece of rope I had):
<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXum0Hs0PgI/AAAAAAAAAV4/ZjXiE0QYoYc/s400/IMG_3593.JPG" />

Instead of a stopper knot, a carabiner clipped through the loop, which would reduce the bulk at the Blake's hitch, and consume less rope.

One of the advantages of the Blake's on a bight is that it climbs like regular DRT, with only one moving strand (relative to the climber), instead of three as found on the traditional third rope. I also realized that an extra split-tail would make this even easier to accomplish. The bight of rope which is passed over the tree could be turned into a regular figure-8 on a bight, and a split tail could be tied onto the two other strands. (see the left photo) The bight could be clipped directly to the harness without terminating it with a fig-8, but this could be dangerous if only one of the down ropes is pulled. This releases the hitch and the other "down rope" can be pulled up through the hitch by the climber's bodyweight. (see the right photo)
<img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXu6_d28UlI/AAAAAAAAAW0/-But1IHhy4w/s400/IMG_3614.JPG" /> <img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXu6_OUS26I/AAAAAAAAAWs/5rBYeC7r7cY/s400/IMG_3612.JPG" />

If the bight is left unterminated, and one of the strand is terminated the split-tail can be tied to the only free strand and give the climber a theoretical 4 to 1 system. Here's a photo, just imagine the scaffold knot was actually mid-line.
<img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXumz6dutWI/AAAAAAAAAVw/qAnxeMFbX5E/s400/IMG_3591.JPG" />

Would this system work the same if you were to use a split tail to make your bridge and Blake instead?

That way you do not have to use a doubled up rope all the way thru.

Edited 1/27/09
After I saw your picture with the mini pulley I think that is a good idea that makes for more fun and less friction if you actually climb on it for a distance. Iwill have to give a trial to see how it works in real life.

EDIT: I've edited my first post in this thread to include some additional pictures of the Blakes on two strands. I had written about this but in an unclear manner. I also reworded some confusing sentences which kept oldtimer from understanding what I was saying. (Thanks oldtimer for making me realize how unclear I was being).

Oldtimer,

Yup this works well. I tried it today.

Using a split tail significantly reduces the bulk, since the quadrupled figure 8 is not necessary, and the Blakes hitch is tied with a single strand. Sorry for being unclear, I should have taken a picture. Maybe I'll go do this... (EDIT: pictures added)

The reason I asked that question is becasue I have used that techinique with one of my extra split tails and it is very easy to put together with minimum gear. I almost always carry a couple of extra split tails hanging from the back of my saddle so it is not a big deal. Nice photos.
Thanks

What is meant by a 'third rope' system?

This setup looks like a complicated solution to a simple scenario.

Has this new configuration of a Blake's hitch...which would make it a different hitch...been pull tested? Even just drop tested with a big ol' log or rock? This seems very unconventional which isn't a condemnation just a HUGE caution...at least to me.

Rather than using a big honkin' double figure eight to tie in the anchor/harness biner why not simply tie a clove hitch? If the tie in isn't in the correct place a clove is easy to roll along without untying the BHDFE.

Where/how would a climber use this?

Could 'unwary novice climbers' safely use this system without a list of caveats?

Tom,

The third rope is a technique that is used for several purposes using the existing climbing rope for purposes similar to some of the uses for a seperate lanyard. Although there advantages to this technique over a lanyard, there are disadvantages. I am sure that the lanyard users might chime in into the key difference, advantages, disadvantages of using a 3rd rope to using a lanyard. An example of an application of a third rope was this past weekend. I was climbing in a pine tree with a SRT TIP at 75'. I was only planning on 1 pitch and going down on the SRT setting so I left the SRT TIP in place as I advanced on my 1st pitch. I then found myself wanting to do another pitch. The problem is that the end of my climbing rope was currently set up in my Split tail DRT for in-tree advancing. How do I go to my next setting? I first have to get off of the Split tail DRT setting so that I can advanced the end of my climbing rope. The third rope came into play as I rigged the third rope to take the load off the Split Tail DRT and become the new life support while I rig my new setting with my climbing rope and split tail. I have used the 3rd rope for positioning for either picture taking throwing or whatever. Knowing the third rope is always a great technique to have in a climbers bag of tricks and can be a life saver at times.

The traditional 3rd rope technique is a f8 on a bite and a slipknot with a large bite pulled through the slip knot. the large bite is put over a limb and connects to the harness. The slipknot becomes the friction hitch for climbing. The advantage is that is easy to ascend. For the most part it is self advancing. The disadvantage is that while possible to descend, it is very difficult. The 3rd rope with a Blake's hitch provides the benefits of a 3rd rope with the benefits of a traditional DRT system for ascending and descending.

As far as novice climbers using this system, it should come in time as the climber becomes familiar with different systems.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a facilitator nor and instructor so what I just described is based on what I have been taught and how I understand the mechanics of climbing along with my personal style and opinion and how my knowledge of climbing has grown over time with experience, and mentoring.

The traditional 3rd rope technique is a f8 on a bite and a slipknot with a large bite pulled through the slip knot. the large bite is put over a limb and connects to the harness. The slipknot becomes the friction hitch for climbing. The advantage is that is easy to ascend. For the most part it is self advancing. The disadvantage is that while possible to descend, it is very difficult.


I'd have to see pictures of this one....using a slipknot as a friction hitch sounds dicey...

If all that a 3rd rope does is substitute for a lanyard...why not just have a lanyard? It does so much more and...and...and???

Climber's who use dedicated lanyards have already made that choice. Joe of Jungle is a leading devotee of the 3rd rope lanyard. It's a minimal way of making a lanyard out of what you have up in the tree. I've used it in a pinch and for ultra minimal climbs. It's a solid technique, I'm glad to have it in my skill set. I prefer a dedicated lanyard but everyone's miles vary depending on their climbing style, preferences etc.

Tengu calls it a "Double Daisy Rope", same concept. He describes it here, first as a separate lanyard and secondly built using the tail of the climbing rope, the classic third rope lanyard:
Double Daisy Rope

-moss

Tom, I appreciate the way you have respectfully expressed your concerns. It's always beneficial to a discussion when it's done in a good way.

I think there is definitely a tipping point in a persons climbing style that will lend to carrying a dedicated lanyard. For those folks that rely heavily on a lanyard I can agree that a dedicated one is irreplaceable.

I don't use a lanyard much. So carrying one all the time becomes clutter for me. For me third roping satisfies my occasional need for lanyarding.

It's a good technique from my experience. I most recently used it in Panama at the top of a 100+ foot yo-yo climb. I wanted to come down on my rack, which needed to be above my Gri-Gri. I needed a lanyard and the third rope was there when I needed it. The other end of my rope was on the ground and I just didn't feel like jockying the whole thing.

Jeff's Idea is new and it does need to be tested. Who is going to do it besides us. I don't see a real need for a drop test, But it would be cool to know what would happen. I'm no lanyard expert so when I think of their use I am Rec. minded and I think of them as generally being loaded during use therefore unlikely to be shock loaded.

You might see situations I cant imagine so help me learn more.

Slippage seems the main concern to me and for me a simple slipknot below the friction knot in the system gives me peace of mind.

While I am fairly new to using the 3rd rope < 3 months, I have never used a Lanyard so I am not going to get into why or why not use one over the other.
From the people that have used and are familiar with both techniques, what particular things can a lanyard do that having a 150' rope and utilizing a 3rd rope can't do. Or is it that a lanyard makes it quicker or easier.

Further discussion on Lanyards in which 3rd rope techniques were mentioned: http://treeclimbercoalition.org/phpBB/v ... ht=lanyard

From my perspective, (I am not knocking the use of one, it is just a reflection of my style) a lanyard is one more piece of gear that I have to haul into the woods. Depending on what the time savings or ease of use of a lanyard may not justify the extra gear and weight. If I carry a 150' rope (the only one I have) and another 40 foot of rope for a lanyard, I am carrying 190' of rope. This takes more space and is more weight that I have to utilize. Although I am not a "Minimalist by no stretch" I am concious of the amount of weight that I carry in my pack. The rope is probably 50-70% of the wieght of my pack. So any more rope is just not a viable option when wilderness climbing for me.

A dedicated lanyard is like a third rope already configured, so when you need it, it's instantly there, just flip over or around the branch, clip in and tighten (or loosen), all with one hand. For most of my climbing I never use the other end of the main climbing rope or the midline of the tail (third rope). Lanyard in, advance the main rope, test the new TIP connection, lanyard off, continue climbing.

In the long run I've had many times where quick and easy one-handed manipulation of the lanyard made a big difference, the advantages of that functionality greatly exceeds any negatives related to additional weight of the lanyard. My lanyard doesn't have much weight to it, two biners, micropulley, a hitch cord and approx. 15 feet of Blaze (light rope).

That's for my climbing style. Third rope works when I don't have my lanyard with me, but I do complain a little while I'm using it, have to work a little more to adjust etc.

I'll carry a shorter main rope if needed to save weight, the lanyard always goes with me except for ultra minimal ninja style where I just want a knapsack on my back with everything I need to climb inside it. It could be argued that what I'm carrying in that case is a long lanyard, there is no main climbing rope.
-moss

For that configuration I'd go with a much shorter lanyard. Different lanyards for different situations. When I carry my 200 ft. 10mm static I also carry a long 11mm lanyard (roughly 40 feet). It only weighs a little more than 150 DRT (cinched SRT) rope and a 15' lanyard. In the first case I'm likely to use third rope on the tail of 40 ft. lanyard in conifer climbing. How's that for mixing it up? Third rope on a lanyard, yay!
-moss

Hello Tom
Here is a link to the New Tribe site to see pictures and description of what they call the "third rope" and others call the Double Daisy Rope ( I do not where those names came from).

http://www.newtribe.com/documents/tip3.htm

To me it is just a way to improvise a short lanyard while doing a transfer or taking pictures or throwing to a higher branch. Just a way to stabilize the climber or while doing a transfer.

I personally use a dedicated 20 ft lanyard but some other people do not use or want to carry one all the time and they use this as an alternative. I would suggest that further training of a new climber is needed to implement this technique correctly and safely. Just in case.

This is a photo of my lanyard



And here it is deployed

Desi,

thanks for the link. Now I understand what is meant.

This is something that will be stashed in the back of my memory but I doubt that I'll ever find a need to use the technique.

A lanyard can be made using webbing or small diameter cord. The weight and bulk would be close to negligible. If I wanted a mini'lanyard I'd use something like B-line, ISC Gator biners and some New England Tech cord. The whole works would easily fit into a belt pouch. The biners would be carried along for other 'just in case' issues so wouldn't count as extra carrying weight.

When the time comes that I need a lanyard I want it NOW...maybe I'm too impulsive, who knows? By the time a rope is tossed, isolated and tied my lanyard is in place.

Thanks for explaining but my lanyard never leaves my harness.