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 Knot a rescue scenario 
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Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:05 am
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Location: Sonoma County, California, USA, Northern Hemisphere, Earth, Sol System, Milky Way, Known Universe
Post Knot a rescue scenario
Well, the rain let up for a bit today so you decided to climb up the oak in your front yard. In fact, the sun poking through the clouds seemed so beautiful that you decided to bring your banjo up into the tree. You excitedly set a line about 35 ft up, suited up and got ready to climb. For reasons you can't remember now, you attached the banjo to a length of rope with a bowline on each end. Recall that you had recently been using this rope to practice a fancy new (to you) bowline termination someone had posted on a popular tree climbing forum. The folks on these message boards are very friendly, and you sure appreciated them helping you out. A friend recently gave you her old digital camera so you've been snapping photos of anything you fancy. Here's a photo you proudly took of your banjo, prior to climbing:

<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXud110cUcI/AAAAAAAAAVI/IDj-yKs7Q_g/s400/IMG_3603.JPG" />

Well, as usual, climbing wasn't what you expected. It seemed that you exhausted your tree climbing good fortune by setting your climbing line with only one throw. When hauling up the banjo, the case got stuck. So you paid out slack, tried to get it swinging and pulled again. It got stuck again. You started to get frustrated, and pulled over and over, but no luck. Reluctantly, you descended so check the damage you had rashly caused to your instrument's case - and hopefully not the instrument yourself. To your surprise, you no longer had two bowlines tied to the handle. One had turned into a noose knot, but unlike one you had seen before. Using your camera, you snapped another picture:

<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXud2GdzorI/AAAAAAAAAVQ/Awo5anzbBOM/s400/IMG_3607.JPG" />

Befuddled to why this happened, you described the events of the day in a post to one of those friendly tree climbing message boards. Perhaps they could help you...


Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:34 pm
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Rogue

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:41 am
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Its hard for me to tell but I will still take the first shot at it. It looks like you were trying to tie the Double Bowline with a Yosemite tie-off. I don't use this knot and don't have any rope at home to tie it, but maybe you tied it incorrectly. You say you are new to the bowline so maybe you got confused. I know a regular bowline can capsize into a slip knot, but a double bowline shouldn't.... I think. I do like the double bowline for many situations, but I never liked the Yosemite tie-off (sometimes called Jacks variation) because it looks too messy for me. Sorry if this is wrong or just not much help, but I got the ball rolling. Good luck.


Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:43 pm
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Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:46 pm
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Location: St. Louis, MO
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Knots can't be trusted with banjos. You need a spliced eye cow hitch! :)

Edit-

Alright, this seems to be degenerate form (correct terminology???). I seem to have trouble remembering the yosemite. There seem to be two correct versions and about six or eight incorrect versions.


Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:58 pm
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Location: Sonoma County, California, USA, Northern Hemisphere, Earth, Sol System, Milky Way, Known Universe
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I realize that I've made scenario more difficult by making the pictures too small so here's one larger one:

<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SXud1hRquoI/AAAAAAAAAVA/GTZv9fNgCZg/s800/IMG_3601.JPG" />

and a link to the album if you'd like to see the others in a larger size.

Nice try emr. It is a single bowline, however. Thanks to JimK for inspiring me to make a knot quiz.


Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:26 pm
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Ok, so maybe this is a knot identification quiz. I can't get a yosemite to look like the big photo.


Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:38 pm
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Ok, so this is a knot knowledge quiz. I was just trying to make if fun for folks. Not too many bites. I'd say this is important to know if you use a bowline with a Yosemite finish... take a stab at it!


Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:31 pm
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Oak wrote:
Ok, so this is a knot knowledge quiz. I was just trying to make it fun for folks. Not too many bites. I'd say this is important to know if you use a bowline with a Yosemite finish... take a stab at it!


Hmmm. Now I think I was mistaken. This does look like a correctly tied Yosemite. If you loosen a Yosemite you can get it to capsize into a slip knot. Oddly enough I haven't yet been able to get a regular Bowline to do that -- although you can get a regular bowline to fail entirely.

EDIT- maybe instead of "fail entirely" I should have said "capsize into a failed slip-open form."

Image


Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:07 am
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Closer, both knots are Yosemite bowlines but something's up with one of them. I'll see if I can take a few clearer photos and I'll demonstrate what's happening.


Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:12 pm
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Here are pictures of the fronts:

<img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SZT0g-rpYvI/AAAAAAAAAXs/UwxBzUa49xw/s400/Right%20front.JPG" /> <img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SZT0hLk21sI/AAAAAAAAAX0/p3tLOQM2-xQ/s400/Wrong%20front.JPG" />

Despite hardly anyone wanting to play, I can't bring myself to give it away just yet. :D I'm hoping the low response was only because of my lousy photos.


Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:55 pm
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Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:37 pm
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Location: Blue Ridge Parkway - Vesta, Virginia
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Be aware that I had to look up "Yosemite Finish", and I suffer from spatial dyslexia (if there's such a disease).

Even so, I'll take a guess.

Whatever you were tying, I believe you may have started with a left-handed bowline.

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It is far, far kneater to know a knot you may knever kneed than to kneed a knot you knever knew. . . . Knapoleon ?


Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:31 am
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Well that bottom knot looks crazy. How about these?

http://home.att.net/~galt_57/yosemite.html


Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:06 pm
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emr wrote:
I know a regular bowline can capsize into a slip knot, but a double bowline shouldn't.... I think.



If a double bowline does capsize, it turns into a poacher's knot (noose).

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It is far, far kneater to know a knot you may knever kneed than to kneed a knot you knever knew. . . . Knapoleon ?


Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:10 pm
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Both of these Yosemite bowlines are tied correctly but improperly dressed. The Yosemite finish has slipped above the minor loop (the "hole for the rabbit") in the knot that capsizes. This is most likely with a stiff rope (e.g. SRT access line). When one side of the major loop and the standing part are pulled in the improperly dressed form, the knot capsizes and becomes a noose. This is less likely with a knot which is set well (again, more difficult to do with a stiff rope).

I came across a good write up on securing a bowline on the NSS's Nylon Highway (vertical caver publication) but it has since escaped me. I'll have to find it again. It was written by Heinz Prohaska (of Blake's hitch fame).

I thought this could be fun for folks, since I know a few people use a Yosemite finish for their bowlines.


Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:52 am
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Oak wrote:
Both of these Yosemite bowlines are tied correctly but improperly dressed.


Really? Could you perhaps loosen up that lower knot so that we could see it better?


Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:28 pm
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Man, you had me convinced for a bit. I thought I had incorrectly tied the incorrectly dressed knot - I'm pretty good with spacial reasoning but I needed to get out a rope and prove it to myself again. Just goes to show how tricky this can be.

I can take some new photos in a bit, but here are some larger versions of the same photos. This should help you see the knot structure a bit better. Try getting out a rope and playing with it.

Correctly dressed:
<img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SZT0g-rpYvI/AAAAAAAAAXs/UwxBzUa49xw/s800/Right%20front.JPG" />

Incorrectly dressed:
<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_PhkoNzJmxww/SZT0hLk21sI/AAAAAAAAAX0/p3tLOQM2-xQ/s800/Wrong%20front.JPG" />

In order to fix the incorrect version, loosen the knot and push the upper coil (part of the "finish") down through the lower coil. Pulling it over the lower coil will essentially untie the bowline (maybe this "untied" beast has a different name - it is definitely a knot but I don't know a name for it).

The most common situation for incorrectly dressing the knot seems to be when the Yosemite finish is pulled tight before the minor loop (the "rabbit's hole") is set. It seems to be more of an issue with stiff rope.


Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:10 am
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